Discussion:
1997 Polaris 500 Indy Trail
(too old to reply)
KJ
2004-02-04 03:14:51 UTC
Permalink
First time poster here...

Looking at one for $1500 with 16k miles on it. A slew of spare parts for it
(just about everything that could possibly fail...) and allot of 'looks'
mods.

Wondering just a few things:
How does this price sound?
I can't find ANY specs on this machine, anyone know of any? I'm looking for
something with some gettup 'n' go but I don't need a 900....

~KJ~
spikey
2004-02-04 04:28:50 UTC
Permalink
if it runs, and has spare parts... it can't be all bad
what else is out there that you are comparing it with?

shop around

it might be a better deal at 999.99, if ya know what I mean

...
spikey
Post by KJ
First time poster here...
Looking at one for $1500 with 16k miles on it. A slew of spare parts for it
(just about everything that could possibly fail...) and allot of 'looks'
mods.
How does this price sound?
I can't find ANY specs on this machine, anyone know of any? I'm looking for
something with some gettup 'n' go but I don't need a 900....
~KJ~
Dean
2004-02-04 16:36:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by KJ
First time poster here...
Looking at one for $1500 with 16k miles on it. A slew of spare parts for it
(just about everything that could possibly fail...) and allot of 'looks'
mods.
How does this price sound?
I can't find ANY specs on this machine, anyone know of any? I'm looking for
something with some gettup 'n' go but I don't need a 900....
~KJ~
With 16k miles on it, I would say avoid it unless you don't mind a
fair bit of wrenching. I would expect to be repairing something every
other run, whether it be a loose suspension piece, or a rusted through
muffler, or etc. If you still want it, I would say do a total rebuild
of the skid and drivetrain if you want it to be reliable. Possibly
the motor too but i'd trust that more than the chaincase and drive
bearings.


-Dean
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
helen flunder
2004-02-06 07:36:38 UTC
Permalink
I have a 1994 arctic cat zr 700 i have to sell. the first 1800.00 take,s it
.It has the pipes done, the clutch done ,a new windshield, heated hand warmers
and thumb warmer,carbs done , very good shape and fast as hell Needs ski s or
skins Track is studded. Open to trades of any kind (no junk) If interested im
in belleville ontario call to veiw or questions 613 968 5478 or email me @
***@hotmail.com this is not a starter sled for kids it is done to the
nuts and very fast
Post by Dean
Post by KJ
First time poster here...
Looking at one for $1500 with 16k miles on it. A slew of spare parts for it
(just about everything that could possibly fail...) and allot of 'looks'
mods.
How does this price sound?
I can't find ANY specs on this machine, anyone know of any? I'm looking for
something with some gettup 'n' go but I don't need a 900....
~KJ~
With 16k miles on it, I would say avoid it unless you don't mind a
fair bit of wrenching. I would expect to be repairing something every
other run, whether it be a loose suspension piece, or a rusted through
muffler, or etc. If you still want it, I would say do a total rebuild
of the skid and drivetrain if you want it to be reliable. Possibly
the motor too but i'd trust that more than the chaincase and drive
bearings.
-Dean
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
Jamie Arnold (W)
2004-02-04 18:32:38 UTC
Permalink
I bought my 95 Indy 500 (liquid cooled) this fall with 19,700 and
change on it for $750. Guy gave me a ton of spares and took 2 hours
going over it with me explaining how to maintain everything (haven't
had a sled in 15 years) He rides 5k a year and lives in Old Forge.
Check the compression, should be around 120 PSI on both cylinders.

Indy trail is worth less for same year/condition. Fan cooled engine,
less HP, etc. Still very reliable.

What stuff has he replaced recently?

I wouldn't pay $1500, unless he gave you $300 worth of spares. Sell
what you don't need on ebay.

A friend that went with me bought this guys 96 Indy 500 (liquid
cooled) with 8K on it for $1250 and got a bunch of spares as well.
Has he replaced the lower seals? If not, they will be due very soon.
How old is the track?

Things to be concerned with:
track age
jackshaft bearings
clutch
lower seals
carb intake boots (rubber things that attach the carbs to the engine)
frame damage
compression (120 psi both sides or better after 5 minute warmup)
Check the plugs for color...brown or darker is better than light
creamy color (maybe too lean)
Has he re-jetted it from stock? I'd run an older engine fat just to
be safe

If this stuff is all in good condition you can be pretty sure that
it's got some more life in it

The Fuji 488 is a *very* reliable engine if it is left stock. Mine
will do 80 across the lakes and still lifts the skis on hardpack.

For specs go here:

http://tinyurl.com/24ylo

Don't be afraid to ask for a deal...there aren't a lot of people
willing to buy a sled with that many miles....mine was for sale for
almost a year before I bought it.

Good luck...let us know how you do!

Jamie
Post by KJ
First time poster here...
Looking at one for $1500 with 16k miles on it. A slew of spare parts for it
(just about everything that could possibly fail...) and allot of 'looks'
mods.
How does this price sound?
I can't find ANY specs on this machine, anyone know of any? I'm looking for
something with some gettup 'n' go but I don't need a 900....
~KJ~
Lonely G-Monkey
2004-02-05 18:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
I bought my 95 Indy 500 (liquid cooled) this fall with 19,700 and
change on it for $750. Guy gave me a ton of spares and took 2 hours
going over it with me explaining how to maintain everything (haven't
had a sled in 15 years) He rides 5k a year and lives in Old Forge.
Check the compression, should be around 120 PSI on both cylinders.
Have a compression checker for 'cars' - the plugs any kind of funky
size on this beast?
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Indy trail is worth less for same year/condition. Fan cooled engine,
less HP, etc. Still very reliable.
It says liquid cooled on it. Just saw a picture (there is a long story
here)
http://www.polarisman.com/channels/content/DisplayModel.cfm?ModelID=97SNOINDY500CARB&Year=1997
Thats the link that looks the most like my machine.
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
What stuff has he replaced recently?
Hy-fax (sp?) steering, tye-rod ends, front/rear shocks. Come with
spare clutch, belt, plugs, windshield, and some other things (can't
remember - no notes).
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
I wouldn't pay $1500, unless he gave you $300 worth of spares. Sell
what you don't need on ebay.
A friend that went with me bought this guys 96 Indy 500 (liquid
cooled) with 8K on it for $1250 and got a bunch of spares as well.
Has he replaced the lower seals? If not, they will be due very soon.
How old is the track?
No idea how old either of these are. "lower" to what? Crank case,
floats, what? Track - no idea....
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
track age
jackshaft bearings
clutch
lower seals
carb intake boots (rubber things that attach the carbs to the engine)
frame damage
compression (120 psi both sides or better after 5 minute warmup)
Check the plugs for color...brown or darker is better than light
creamy color (maybe too lean)
Has he re-jetted it from stock? I'd run an older engine fat just to
be safe
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
If this stuff is all in good condition you can be pretty sure that
it's got some more life in it
The Fuji 488 is a *very* reliable engine if it is left stock. Mine
will do 80 across the lakes and still lifts the skis on hardpack.
What is "high" millage for a snow mobile? I mean in my millage book my
K5 with 165k is a spring chicken - but I've never owned a sled in my
life.
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
http://tinyurl.com/24ylo
Don't be afraid to ask for a deal...there aren't a lot of people
willing to buy a sled with that many miles....mine was for sale for
almost a year before I bought it.
Don't worry, buying & selling is my life and job - I wont pay
$1,500.00
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Good luck...let us know how you do!
Jamie
Jamie Arnold (W)
2004-02-05 18:59:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
I bought my 95 Indy 500 (liquid cooled) this fall with 19,700 and
change on it for $750. Guy gave me a ton of spares and took 2 hours
going over it with me explaining how to maintain everything (haven't
had a sled in 15 years) He rides 5k a year and lives in Old Forge.
Check the compression, should be around 120 PSI on both cylinders.
Have a compression checker for 'cars' - the plugs any kind of funky
Nope... 13/16 i believe.
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
size on this beast?
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Indy trail is worth less for same year/condition. Fan cooled engine,
less HP, etc. Still very reliable.
It says liquid cooled on it. Just saw a picture (there is a long story
here)
http://www.polarisman.com/channels/content/DisplayModel.cfm?ModelID=97SNOINDY500CARB&Year=1997
Thats the link that looks the most like my machine.
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
What stuff has he replaced recently?
Hy-fax (sp?) steering, tye-rod ends, front/rear shocks. Come with
spare clutch, belt, plugs, windshield, and some other things (can't
remember - no notes).
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
I wouldn't pay $1500, unless he gave you $300 worth of spares. Sell
what you don't need on ebay.
A friend that went with me bought this guys 96 Indy 500 (liquid
cooled) with 8K on it for $1250 and got a bunch of spares as well.
Has he replaced the lower seals? If not, they will be due very soon.
How old is the track?
No idea how old either of these are. "lower" to what? Crank case,
floats, what? Track - no idea....
Crankcase seals. They can cause big problems on a 2 stroke motor.
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
track age
jackshaft bearings
clutch
lower seals
carb intake boots (rubber things that attach the carbs to the engine)
frame damage
compression (120 psi both sides or better after 5 minute warmup)
Check the plugs for color...brown or darker is better than light
creamy color (maybe too lean)
Has he re-jetted it from stock? I'd run an older engine fat just to
be safe
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
If this stuff is all in good condition you can be pretty sure that
it's got some more life in it
The Fuji 488 is a *very* reliable engine if it is left stock. Mine
will do 80 across the lakes and still lifts the skis on hardpack.
What is "high" millage for a snow mobile? I mean in my millage book my
K5 with 165k is a spring chicken - but I've never owned a sled in my
life.
5,000 is high for the average Joe, 10,000 is a rental in US, 15,000 is
rental in BC...you get the idea
V8s and 2 cylinder 2 strokes are very different animals....that Fuji
engine is designed to make power till 8000 RPM...and do it all day at
the RPM...Your V8 makes 90% of it's torque below 2500 RPM. Spin it to
8K and you'll be picking up pieces (unless it's heavily modded)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
http://tinyurl.com/24ylo
Don't be afraid to ask for a deal...there aren't a lot of people
willing to buy a sled with that many miles....mine was for sale for
almost a year before I bought it.
Don't worry, buying & selling is my life and job - I wont pay
$1,500.00
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Good luck...let us know how you do!
Jamie
Dean
2004-02-05 19:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you premix)
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
James Arnold
2004-02-05 23:51:07 UTC
Permalink
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets carried
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?

If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at the front
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the back with
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the stack at
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant mixture will
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the fuel/air
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.

J
Post by Dean
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you premix)
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
Dean
2004-02-06 00:08:31 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets carried
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at the front
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the back with
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the stack at
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant mixture will
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the fuel/air
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do not
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying the
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any difference
on how lubricated your motor is.

As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into the
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting will
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.

-Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you premix)
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
James Arnold
2004-02-06 00:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Fuel, by itself, has limited lubricating properties. Since the methyl lead
has been mostly removed from commercially available gasoline. The design of
a 2 stroke engine uses the port scavenge model to move fuel/air and
lubricant. Adding more fuel reduces the percentage of oil and thus reduces
the lubricating benefit. That being said, I believe that the main reason
for lean seizes is reduced cooling effect from the fuel/air mixture due to
less fuel and more air.

J
Post by Dean
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets carried
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at the front
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the back with
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the stack at
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant mixture will
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the fuel/air
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do not
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying the
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any difference
on how lubricated your motor is.
As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into the
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting will
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.
-Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you premix)
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
KJ
2004-02-06 00:35:58 UTC
Permalink
That I know your wrong. Lean will burn out ANY engine. An engine runs
(slightly) stronger when lean, ALLOT hotter, comparitively cleaner. While
the engine may not over heat, the excess heat does all sorts of nasty things
(holes in pistons come to mind).

~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
Fuel, by itself, has limited lubricating properties. Since the methyl lead
has been mostly removed from commercially available gasoline. The design of
a 2 stroke engine uses the port scavenge model to move fuel/air and
lubricant. Adding more fuel reduces the percentage of oil and thus reduces
the lubricating benefit. That being said, I believe that the main reason
for lean seizes is reduced cooling effect from the fuel/air mixture due to
less fuel and more air.
J
Post by Dean
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets
carried
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at the
front
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the back
with
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the
stack
Post by James Arnold
at
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant mixture
will
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the fuel/air
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do not
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying the
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any difference
on how lubricated your motor is.
As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into the
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting will
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.
-Dean
Post by James Arnold
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:59:43 -0500, "Jamie Arnold (W)"
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just about
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased for
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you premix)
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
James Arnold
2004-02-06 00:57:22 UTC
Permalink
That's what I said.

J
Post by KJ
That I know your wrong. Lean will burn out ANY engine. An engine runs
(slightly) stronger when lean, ALLOT hotter, comparitively cleaner. While
the engine may not over heat, the excess heat does all sorts of nasty things
(holes in pistons come to mind).
~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
Fuel, by itself, has limited lubricating properties. Since the methyl
lead
Post by James Arnold
has been mostly removed from commercially available gasoline. The
design
Post by KJ
of
Post by James Arnold
a 2 stroke engine uses the port scavenge model to move fuel/air and
lubricant. Adding more fuel reduces the percentage of oil and thus
reduces
Post by James Arnold
the lubricating benefit. That being said, I believe that the main reason
for lean seizes is reduced cooling effect from the fuel/air mixture due to
less fuel and more air.
J
Post by Dean
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets
carried
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at the
front
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the back
with
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the
stack
Post by James Arnold
at
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant mixture
will
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the fuel/air
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do not
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying the
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any difference
on how lubricated your motor is.
As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into the
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting will
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.
-Dean
Post by James Arnold
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:59:43 -0500, "Jamie Arnold (W)"
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just
about
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased
for
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you
premix)
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
KJ
2004-02-06 00:59:44 UTC
Permalink
No, fuel burns at a higher temp. That's what I said.

~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
That's what I said.
J
Post by KJ
That I know your wrong. Lean will burn out ANY engine. An engine runs
(slightly) stronger when lean, ALLOT hotter, comparitively cleaner. While
the engine may not over heat, the excess heat does all sorts of nasty
things
Post by KJ
(holes in pistons come to mind).
~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
Fuel, by itself, has limited lubricating properties. Since the methyl
lead
Post by James Arnold
has been mostly removed from commercially available gasoline. The
design
Post by KJ
of
Post by James Arnold
a 2 stroke engine uses the port scavenge model to move fuel/air and
lubricant. Adding more fuel reduces the percentage of oil and thus
reduces
Post by James Arnold
the lubricating benefit. That being said, I believe that the main
reason
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
for lean seizes is reduced cooling effect from the fuel/air mixture
due
Post by James Arnold
to
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
less fuel and more air.
J
Post by Dean
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets
carried
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at
the
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
front
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the
back
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
with
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the
stack
Post by James Arnold
at
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant
mixture
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
will
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the fuel/air
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do not
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying the
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any difference
on how lubricated your motor is.
As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into the
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting will
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.
-Dean
Post by James Arnold
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:59:43 -0500, "Jamie Arnold (W)"
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just
about
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I purchased
for
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes
from
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the motor.
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you
premix)
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
James Arnold
2004-02-06 01:02:54 UTC
Permalink
???

Less fuel (leaner mixture) is hotter due to less cooling effect from the
mixture (less gas, less unburned gas when done)

Maybe we're saying the same thing 2 different ways.

J
Post by KJ
No, fuel burns at a higher temp. That's what I said.
~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
That's what I said.
J
Post by KJ
That I know your wrong. Lean will burn out ANY engine. An engine runs
(slightly) stronger when lean, ALLOT hotter, comparitively cleaner.
While
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
the engine may not over heat, the excess heat does all sorts of nasty
things
Post by KJ
(holes in pistons come to mind).
~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
Fuel, by itself, has limited lubricating properties. Since the methyl
lead
Post by James Arnold
has been mostly removed from commercially available gasoline. The
design
Post by KJ
of
Post by James Arnold
a 2 stroke engine uses the port scavenge model to move fuel/air and
lubricant. Adding more fuel reduces the percentage of oil and thus
reduces
Post by James Arnold
the lubricating benefit. That being said, I believe that the main
reason
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
for lean seizes is reduced cooling effect from the fuel/air mixture
due
Post by James Arnold
to
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
less fuel and more air.
J
Post by Dean
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that gets
carried
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector at
the
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
front
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at the
back
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
with
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through the
stack
Post by James Arnold
at
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant
mixture
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
will
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the
fuel/air
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do not
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying the
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any
difference
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
on how lubricated your motor is.
As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into
the
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting will
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.
-Dean
Post by James Arnold
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:59:43 -0500, "Jamie Arnold (W)"
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out just
about
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I
purchased
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
for
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes
from
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the
motor.
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you
premix)
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
KJ
2004-02-06 01:20:35 UTC
Permalink
It has always been explained to me that when leaning out an engine you'll
get more performance because of a cleaner (more efficient), more explosive
burn, but your on a razor edge of burning up the metal because the more
efficiently burning fuel is now combusting at a higher temperature, and more
of the explosion is completed in the cylinder and not in the exhaust port.
This combination of a hotter burn, and a more 'compact' heat 'packet'
induces cylinder holes, melted plugs, in 4strokes elongated exhaust
valves.........
However - while I have never been wrong, there was this one time when I was
mistaken.

~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
???
Less fuel (leaner mixture) is hotter due to less cooling effect from the
mixture (less gas, less unburned gas when done)
Maybe we're saying the same thing 2 different ways.
J
Post by KJ
No, fuel burns at a higher temp. That's what I said.
~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
That's what I said.
J
Post by KJ
That I know your wrong. Lean will burn out ANY engine. An engine runs
(slightly) stronger when lean, ALLOT hotter, comparitively cleaner.
While
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
the engine may not over heat, the excess heat does all sorts of nasty
things
Post by KJ
(holes in pistons come to mind).
~KJ~
Post by James Arnold
Fuel, by itself, has limited lubricating properties. Since the
methyl
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
lead
Post by James Arnold
has been mostly removed from commercially available gasoline. The
design
Post by KJ
of
Post by James Arnold
a 2 stroke engine uses the port scavenge model to move fuel/air and
lubricant. Adding more fuel reduces the percentage of oil and thus
reduces
Post by James Arnold
the lubricating benefit. That being said, I believe that the main
reason
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
for lean seizes is reduced cooling effect from the fuel/air mixture
due
Post by James Arnold
to
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
less fuel and more air.
J
Post by Dean
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:51:07 GMT, "James Arnold"
Post by James Arnold
OK..so if all the lubrication does not come from the oil that
gets
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
carried
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
by the fuel through the airstream then where does it come from?
If you take a wind tunnel or velocity stack and put an injector
at
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
the
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
front
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
with fuel (the liquid with the lowest density) and then one at
the
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
back
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
with
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
oil (the liquid with the highest density) and draw air through
the
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
stack
Post by James Arnold
at
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
100 CFM, the fuel will atomize in the airstream, the resultant
mixture
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
will
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
carry the heavier density liquid through the air path as the
fuel/air
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
mixture acts like a surfactant to the oil.
My post was correct. I am not trying to say the fuel and oil do
not
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
interact in the airstream after the carburetor, I'm just saying
the
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
fact of enrichening or leaning your mixture won't make any
difference
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
on how lubricated your motor is.
As opposed to our mercury outboard, where the oil is injected into
the
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
fuel line that leads to the carbs. Here, changing the jetting
will
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
indeed change the amount of oil provided to the motor.
-Dean
Post by James Arnold
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 13:59:43 -0500, "Jamie Arnold (W)"
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
By fat I would assume you mean rich? I'll be checking out
just
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
about
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
everything in the engine (I maintain a 1985 K5 which I
purchased
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
for
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
$150 http://www.geocities.com/hawkeye649box/k5.html )
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes
from
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
Post by Jamie Arnold (W)
the oil carried in the fuel.
Not quite. The fuel and oil are never mixed together in the
motor.
Post by James Arnold
Post by KJ
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
The oil gets injected just after the carburetor into the intake
stream. Your amount of oilage in most snowmobiles (unless you
premix)
Post by James Arnold
Post by Dean
Post by James Arnold
is not related to your jettting.
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
KJ
2004-02-06 00:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Nope... 13/16 i believe. (spark plug size)
Sweet.
Crankcase seals. They can cause big problems on a 2 stroke motor.
Guessing I'd just need to look for some kind of liquid/discoloration? Where
would these be located on this engine?
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Trust me, I understand how a two stroke, 4 stroke, and even how an otto
cycle engine works.
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
What is "high" millage for a snow mobile? I mean in my millage book my
K5 with 165k is a spring chicken - but I've never owned a sled in my
life.
5,000 is high for the average Joe, 10,000 is a rental in US, 15,000 is
rental in BC...you get the idea
V8s and 2 cylinder 2 strokes are very different animals....that Fuji
engine is designed to make power till 8000 RPM...and do it all day at
the RPM...Your V8 makes 90% of it's torque below 2500 RPM. Spin it to
8K and you'll be picking up pieces (unless it's heavily modded)
Man, at least on all the other sleds I've ridden 8k is about 60-70mph - and
not a speed I maintain for any long period.
So basically this engine is at the end of it's life from the sounds of it.
None of your numbers were higher than the mileage on this engine. I guess I
meant, what is the average mileage that these engines should die at. Like a
Chevy 350 is about a 2-300k engine if your good with a wrench.

~KJ~
James Arnold
2004-02-06 01:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by KJ
Nope... 13/16 i believe. (spark plug size)
Sweet.
Crankcase seals. They can cause big problems on a 2 stroke motor.
Guessing I'd just need to look for some kind of liquid/discoloration? Where
would these be located on this engine?
The crank exits the engine on both sides, PTO (clutch) side and MAG side.
The seals look like a standard axle or one piece rear main seal on a V8.
Post by KJ
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Trust me, I understand how a two stroke, 4 stroke, and even how an otto
cycle engine works.
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
What is "high" millage for a snow mobile? I mean in my millage book my
K5 with 165k is a spring chicken - but I've never owned a sled in my
life.
5,000 is high for the average Joe, 10,000 is a rental in US, 15,000 is
rental in BC...you get the idea
V8s and 2 cylinder 2 strokes are very different animals....that Fuji
engine is designed to make power till 8000 RPM...and do it all day at
the RPM...Your V8 makes 90% of it's torque below 2500 RPM. Spin it to
8K and you'll be picking up pieces (unless it's heavily modded)
Man, at least on all the other sleds I've ridden 8k is about 60-70mph - and
not a speed I maintain for any long period.
So basically this engine is at the end of it's life from the sounds of it.
None of your numbers were higher than the mileage on this engine. I guess I
meant, what is the average mileage that these engines should die at. Like a
Chevy 350 is about a 2-300k engine if your good with a wrench.
I dunno about that. Like I said, mine has over 20K on it and still runs like
bear. I expect to get at least another full season before I have to do
anything to this engine. Maybe more.

J
Post by KJ
~KJ~
Dean
2004-02-06 01:52:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by KJ
Man, at least on all the other sleds I've ridden 8k is about 60-70mph - and
not a speed I maintain for any long period.
Sleds have a CVT drive system. Your RPM varies with your throttle
input, not your output shaft speed.

In my 440 I can be at 8200rpm @ 20mph (accelerating like a banshee),
or at 8200rpm @85mph WOT across the lake.

In contrast I can be at 6000rpm at 20mph also, when I'm just cruzing
or nearly coasting. I can also be at 6000rpm at 60mph just
maintaining speed without accelerating.

-Dean
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
KJ
2004-02-06 02:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean
Post by KJ
Man, at least on all the other sleds I've ridden 8k is about 60-70mph - and
not a speed I maintain for any long period.
Sleds have a CVT drive system. Your RPM varies with your throttle
input, not your output shaft speed.
In contrast I can be at 6000rpm at 20mph also, when I'm just cruzing
or nearly coasting. I can also be at 6000rpm at 60mph just
maintaining speed without accelerating.
-Dean
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
I agree, the belt system is an ingenious gearing method. It makes for
infinitely variable gearing ratios, and a simple wear item to replace. As
apposed to clutches/fly wheels or clutch surfaces in automatic
transmissions.
However you answered yourself, to maintain speed all day you have to stop
accelerating at some point. So holding speed will bring it up to 80mph and
8,000 RPM. I can't maintain that on the trails I run, can't think of many
people who can. I would have guessed that a 2 stroke is more tuned to run
from 5-6k RPM

~KJ~
Dean
2004-02-06 02:29:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by KJ
I agree, the belt system is an ingenious gearing method. It makes for
infinitely variable gearing ratios, and a simple wear item to replace. As
apposed to clutches/fly wheels or clutch surfaces in automatic
transmissions.
Yup. too bad they arn't more efficient. They do tend to rob a fair
amount of power, but on a snowmobile changing gears would be a major
pain.
Post by KJ
However you answered yourself, to maintain speed all day you have to stop
accelerating at some point. So holding speed will bring it up to 80mph and
8,000 RPM. I can't maintain that on the trails I run, can't think of many
people who can.
True true. Also, most trails around where I am I average something
around 30mph or so. Every once in a while you'll hit a lake or a long
straight farm field where you can open her up for a little while.
Post by KJ
I would have guessed that a 2 stroke is more tuned to run from 5-6k RPM
Nah, they have pretty steep torque curves, and most snowmobile motors
don't start pulling hard till 7k or so, especially the smaller ones
(like my 440). Some of the triples are clutched to rev at 9k at WOT.
They really are rev-happy, and if kept proper oil and fuel mixtures,
will happily run these rpms all day (with adequate snow for cooling).

-Dean
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
KJ
2004-02-06 02:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Just the fact that to run that fast all day you would need to be on hard
pack, and your runners might last the day!

~KJ~
Post by Dean
Post by KJ
I agree, the belt system is an ingenious gearing method. It makes for
infinitely variable gearing ratios, and a simple wear item to replace. As
apposed to clutches/fly wheels or clutch surfaces in automatic
transmissions.
Yup. too bad they arn't more efficient. They do tend to rob a fair
amount of power, but on a snowmobile changing gears would be a major
pain.
Post by KJ
However you answered yourself, to maintain speed all day you have to stop
accelerating at some point. So holding speed will bring it up to 80mph and
8,000 RPM. I can't maintain that on the trails I run, can't think of many
people who can.
True true. Also, most trails around where I am I average something
around 30mph or so. Every once in a while you'll hit a lake or a long
straight farm field where you can open her up for a little while.
Post by KJ
I would have guessed that a 2 stroke is more tuned to run from 5-6k RPM
Nah, they have pretty steep torque curves, and most snowmobile motors
don't start pulling hard till 7k or so, especially the smaller ones
(like my 440). Some of the triples are clutched to rev at 9k at WOT.
They really are rev-happy, and if kept proper oil and fuel mixtures,
will happily run these rpms all day (with adequate snow for cooling).
-Dean
--
92 Polaris Indy 440 XCR
http://www.ripperd.com
Wes 94ZR580
2004-02-06 17:55:27 UTC
Permalink
I think you usually find an air leak into the crankcase after a
catastrophic failure. A melted piston and scored cylinder will usually
result. An early symptom of a leaky seal can be a speedy idle, and/or
uneven idle. You can spray WD-40 on the PTO seal and around the base
gaskets, etc. to check for suspect leaks, but the MAG side seal is
behind the stator and flywheel. The best way to check is to pressure
test the motor.

Wes
94 ZR580
Post by KJ
Nope... 13/16 i believe. (spark plug size)
Sweet.
Crankcase seals. They can cause big problems on a 2 stroke motor.
Guessing I'd just need to look for some kind of liquid/discoloration? Where
would these be located on this engine?
Yes, rich. Again..it's a 2 stroke, all it's lubrication comes from
the oil carried in the fuel.
Trust me, I understand how a two stroke, 4 stroke, and even how an otto
cycle engine works.
Post by Lonely G-Monkey
What is "high" millage for a snow mobile? I mean in my millage book my
K5 with 165k is a spring chicken - but I've never owned a sled in my
life.
5,000 is high for the average Joe, 10,000 is a rental in US, 15,000 is
rental in BC...you get the idea
V8s and 2 cylinder 2 strokes are very different animals....that Fuji
engine is designed to make power till 8000 RPM...and do it all day at
the RPM...Your V8 makes 90% of it's torque below 2500 RPM. Spin it to
8K and you'll be picking up pieces (unless it's heavily modded)
Man, at least on all the other sleds I've ridden 8k is about 60-70mph - and
not a speed I maintain for any long period.
So basically this engine is at the end of it's life from the sounds of it.
None of your numbers were higher than the mileage on this engine. I guess I
meant, what is the average mileage that these engines should die at. Like a
Chevy 350 is about a 2-300k engine if your good with a wrench.
~KJ~
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